Maduro declared winner of disputed Venezuelan election

Rachiba said:
@MalchikRepaid Oh, but you forget one thing: the US does not need oil, and Venezuelan exploitation is not at its best because it is already difficult to extract oil with the refineries, some of which are already collapsed. It is not just about oil.

And, surely, some foreign company or another will be interested in investing in Venezuela, since we lost the capacity to extract and produce oil, the government has no choice but to allow foreign investment, betraying its own narrative of "the Yankee empire that wants to steal our oil."

MalchikRepaid said:


You're right about that. Oh, well. The most viable countries that can invest to Venezuela's oil industry are China and South Korea, all of them are East Asian countries. South Korea is an interesting case because it is a pro-American country that used to be economically intergrated with Russia after Yeltsin's resignition as well as doing trade with MENA strongmen for decades.

It just makes me think that Latin America's future prosperity relies on Asia, not the West. You've seen how degenerate, corrupt, and especially uneconomical the West is right now just by looking at the opening ceremony for the 2024 Paris Olympics, AKA no decency and no sensible spending of taxpayers' money.

Democracy in the West? It's already a dead political system.

Rachiba said:
Now, I don't understand your point about the West, I saw the opening of the Olympic games and I felt disgusted, but not because of a political issue or "wokeism", It was already aesthetically horrible and poorly organized, outside of any message of inclusion or symbolism that they wanted to sell me. But this does not change the situation in this country. To think that there is a better democracy than the West based only on ideological or geopolitical opinions is absurd. This is a dictatorship and right now groups of people around the country are protesting of their own free will against the lack of respect that the government showed to the nation and the world.

MalchikRepaid said:


Latin America needs a brand new way of governing themselves. Avoiding Western democracy, for example and it's a very good example.

Rachiba said:

Changing from a democratic model to a more authoritarian one out of mere ideological disgust is a nonsense product of propaganda.Yeah, the West has the problems that we already know, but assuming that there is a better model than that allows you to say what in China you couldn't express completely freely... and you tell me that Latin America should become someone else's backyard?

A French woman who lives on the other side of the continent?

MalchikRepaid said:
Latin America is already and always authoritarian for over a century

Rachiba said:
It is totally false to affirm that South Korea and Japan are dictatorships, because currently they are not (especially Korea, which is very sixties to think that they continue like this ).

you have a centrist-imperialist idea of us by only caring about a change of hegemony based on power than in self-determination in the people.

You don't care about the well-being of society, only about ensuring your ideological position over those who think differently.

Unfortunately this country is idiotic based on fanaticism rather than authentic positions.

But my ideological positions will never go above democracy,

Go and send your cultural war somewhere else,

Rachiba said:
centrist-imperialist idea of us by only caring about a change of hegemony based on power than in self-determination in the people

Gween_Gween said:
To say that we can't achieve democracy is absurd though

Gween_Gween said:

tbh latin America is never going to achieve any self-determination, we are sparsely populated land masses controlled by land-owners that have never contributed anything of worth beyond culture bordering the less populated area of the world, a failed continent, and the biggest superpower. To say that we can't achieve democracy is absurd though, idk what this person is smoking, Chile, Costa Rica, and Uruguay are more functional democracies than most of Europe lmao, we are historically presidential republics

Rachiba said:
Creo que voy a responder esto latino porque recuerdo que eras chilena(?

Sí, o sea, Latinoamérica ya es una región jodida en círculo vicioso por buscar al Mesías que le resuelva sus problemas. El problema no es ese. El problema es que me venga una gringa (o la sombra franchuda de un gringo) a decirme a mí tengo que cambiar de dueño como si ese no fuera peor de persona que el que tenemos actualmente. Sí, vale, somos el pateo trasero de EEUU, que los gringos son unos hijos de putas en violaciones de derechos humanos a nivel histórico, pero justificar esto para tapar las violaciones de gobiernos antiamericanos porque le jala bolas a China o Rusia (en el caso del commie que aún tiene memorias de la guerra fría) es mucho más descerebrado y absurdo de creer. Y no comulgo con la izquierda o extrema izquierda, pero es que acaso no piensan cómo Chávez nunca fue sancionado económicamente? Este gobierno es lo peor que ha pasado a este país, y diría también que es la continuación de la política de Chávez, aunque hay personas de la izquierda con memorias nostálgicas al chavismo que no parecen estar de acuerdo

tbh latin America is never going to achieve any self-determination,

vasipi4946 said:
@Piromysl There is a Communist Party and it opposes the Government
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_Venezuela

It supports this guy
https://english.elpais.com/international/2024-03-31/enrique-marquez-maduros-opponent-at-the-polls-even-if-chavismo-doesnt-want-to-it-must-accept-defeat.html

The PCV that supports Maduro is made up of people that were expelled in 2020 and has no grassroots membership, the leadership is made up entirely of PSUV members. The actual formations of the PCV broke with Maduro.

There has been a serious split within the Chavista movement with the Left coming to the conclusion that the revolution died years ago and Maduro/PSUV/military hammered the nails into the coffin. The safety nets, health programs, minimum wage, the economy in general, and grassroots organizing tied to social movements are all gone. Most of the left social movements left the Chavista coalition a long time ago. This has extended to the police raiding smaller, further-left allies (including the PCV), arresting their militants, and replacing their leadership by decree. Then there was the Essequibo referendum and Maduro buddying up to far-right Evangelical churches that used to support the opposition, which has provided him with more mobilization power than any labor union (they all hate his guts), and basically it's a failing and corrupt government turning to base populist nationalism to salvage some popularity as many officials continue enriching themselves.

vasipi4946 said:
@Piromysl I'm simply pointing out that the Communist Party of Venezuela doesn't support him because you said he was a Communist.

See what you wrote:

>You can vote your way into communism

MalchikRepaid said:


Oh, yes. Keep complaining. That would solve everything. Yes, everything will be fine because you have the power to complain about things online. Excuse me, but reality resists simplicity.

Like that Chilean member said.



Whether you like it or not, the truth is that Latin America (maybe except Brazil because of different history and much different social patterns, the influence of the Spanish Siete Partidas is still applicable today except for Brazil for that reason) cannot achieve stability by itself. Just look at your people who are trying to move to the USA en mass without any end in sight. This isn't a sign of self-determination, right? No self-determination means that there will always be non-Latin American superpowers being involved in Latin America whether you like it or not.

Think of it this way. Maduro simply keeping power that easily is the justification that Western democracy and its elements like free elections have no place in your country. The truth is that (Western) democracy is in decline worldwide. You know, the internet is the most optimal tool to spread authoritarian ideas and opinions. This is the main reason the internet kills the spirit of free elections. And this is also the reason Russia and China are thriving thanks to the internet.

You need to stop being pessimistic and start being more realistic. You said "my ideological positions will never go above democracy" and that's too idealistic that could unknowningly cloud your own judgement, hence the pessimistic attitude you have shown to me via words.

And I know what you think. You will criticize me because I said the truth. Anyways, it's fine for you to criticize me.

Rachiba said:
Democracies, however imperfect they may be, are preferable to establishing an authoritarian government that has not been imposed by the legitimacy of the people but by the violence of a small group.

The reason you can easily talk about China and Russia is because we have greater access to US human rights violations, which your idols have not done until now.

The self-determination of peoples does not imply making the same shitty speech against a power and then subjecting your population to authoritarianism under the pretext that an external force is compromising national interests.

As much as Chávez talked about "Yankee go home," he continued to establish international relations with the West and sell oil. His power of oratory was what made him convince his electorate that they were in a "fight against imperialism" when such a thing did not exist, really. He never declared a war because he knew where Venezuela would end up if its largest oil partner stopped buying oil from it, which curiously happened with Maduro.

Auron_ said:
Not sure how past you're thinking of, but the election before this one also was mired with cases of voting irregularities, although this time it seems more severe. And before that is Maduro's first term in 2013, preliminary look shows me independent observers were invited then, but not for subsequent. I don't know why it'd be odd for a newcomer to not yet have consolidated enough power to engage in systematic voter fraud, but once he's the incumbent and taken his hold on the institutions, being able to do that twice, in 2018 and 2024.

One is by Edison research. Conducted nationwide in 100 different voting centers with 6,846 total polled of all demographics. Margin of error sits at +-2%

https://www.edisonresearch.com/edison-research-conducts-exit-poll-in-venezuela/

One point in favor of the opposition lies in the voting platforms, which throughout the years have been updated with all kinds of anti-fraud devices. These include biometric voter identification and, according to Martínez, the system prevents the CNE from knowing how individual people vote by separating citizens’ data from their vote. In addition, after voting, the machines print out a paper record, which the voter then verifies and deposits in a ballot box, which undergo a subsequent, partial manual review. At the end of the day, the machine prints a record of results — in front of electoral witnesses — and then sends the data by telephone or satellite to the counting center. Martínez points out that there is no risk of electrical failure affecting this process because the machines run on batteries in order to ensure their autonomy from the grid.

Experts consulted agree that the issue does not lie in the voting platforms, which have become allies for the opposition. “Although it is often said on social media that the machines change the votes, or that they can commit voter identity fraud, audits have shown that this does not happen and that it would be easy to denounce in the case that it did,” says Martínez. Griselda Colina, former alternate rector of the CNE and current director of the Global Observatory of Communication and Democracy, says something similar: “The regime wanted to make a strong electoral system so that nobody could cheat them. It is so robust that it has allowed various factions to win elections. If it could alter votes, why did Chavismo lose in the 2015 legislative elections?”

Both experts clarify the machines’ trustworthiness doesn’t negate the fact that the CNE has been co-opted by Chavismo and could announce fraudulent results. Nonetheless, they trust in the efficiency of their system’s verification mechanisms and emphasize that it is important that citizens know they can bear witness to these processes. “When the presiding officer closes the polls, a tally sheet with a QR code is printed. People [in addition to witnesses] can enter and record that code to ensure greater control over the results,” Colina explains in video call. These records, says the expert, must then be checked against the announcement of the electoral authorities. “We have to demand that the CNE break down the results of each polling station and each table in order for them to be verified,” he adds.

MalchikRepaid said:
The future of this world is not Western democracy, but just good old authoritarianism thanks to the power of the internet. It will be extremely foolish to support free elections in this day and age of enjoying the easier flow of information.

If you want dignity, don't support free elections that create more meaningless conflicts.

INTERIM REPORT
UN Panel of Experts – Venezuelan Presidential Elections 28 July 2024

1. At the invitation of the National Electoral Council (CNE) of Venezuela, and within the
framework of the Barbados Agreement of October 2023, theUN Panel of Experts – consisting
of four electoral experts – deployed to Venezuela, from late June through 2 August 2024, to
follow the Presidential election held on 28 July 2024. Its objective was to follow and report
internally to the UN Secretary-General on the election process, and make recommendations
for future improvements. The Panel was not an observation mission, and – in contrast to
electoral observation missions – was not established to make a public judgement on the
outcome of the election.

2. The Panel hereby presents some of its preliminary conclusions, focusing on
election day and the management and announcement of results. The Panel continues to
follow and analyze remotely the process, specifically the handling of electoral complaints
and appeals. The Panel’s full report will also address the legal framework for elections, voter
registration, candidate registration, the campaign environment, the electoral administration,
and women’s political participation.

3. The election was dominated by the contest between the incumbent candidate,
President Nicolás Maduro, and the opposition Democratic Unitary Platform’s candidate,
Edmundo González Urrutia. There were no female candidates on the ballot.

4. The pre-electoral period was marked by continuous restrictions on civic and
political space. The government campaign dominated state-owned media outlets, with very
limited access for opposition candidates. A number of restrictions to the right to stand for
office remained in place for several prominent political figures. Despite the absence of a
level playing field, the pre-electoral period unfolded peacefully overall, amongst renewed
enthusiasm.

5. The Panel also noted other features which shaped the context of the election and
how its contenders perceived its stakes. For example, the incumbent candidate and the
ruling party’s campaign emphasized the economic and financial sanctions imposed on
Venezuela, and described the election as an unfair race in which the President was at a
disadvantage.

6. Election day on Sunday, 28 July 2024, took place in a largely peaceful environment
and was logistically well organized. The CNE was able to detect and swiftly resolve a large
majority of small technical glitches that were reported during the day. Voters in general
appeared to be patient and enthusiastic about participating, despite long waiting times and
reports of last-minute changes as to the polling station to which they were allocated.

7. The CNE reported a turnout of 59.97% of registered voters. Opposition parties
reported similar turnout figures. This is a marked increase from the 2018 presidential
elections (45.74%). If only registered voters present in-country are taken into account, the
level of participation would be even higher.

8. As acknowledged by all contenders, the electronic voting system was well designed
and trusted, and was scheduled to function in combination with significant audit procedures
and the dissemination of results protocols at the polling station. The CNE had also put in
place a robust mechanism for the results transmission process – the digital transmission of
results from each voting machine to the CNE’s main tabulation centre – with several layers
of protection against unauthorized connections and cyberattacks.

9. The actual electronic results transmission reportedly worked well initially, but was
abruptly stopped in the hours after the closing of polling stations, without any information or
explanation provided to candidates at the time, orto the Panel. At the moment of announcing
the results, the President of the CNE declared that a terrorist cyber-attack had affected the
transmission and caused a delay in the tabulation process. The CNE, however, postponed
and subsequently cancelled three key post-electoral audits, including one on the
communication system that could have shed light on the occurrence of external attacks on
the transmission infrastructure.

10. In the early hours of 29 July 2024, the President of the CNE orally announced that
President Nicolás Maduro had won the election with 5,150,092 votes (51.2%), followed by
Edmundo González with 4,445,978 votes (44.2%), stating that 80% of polling station results
had been received. On 2 August, the CNE confirmed President Maduro as the winner with
6,408,844 votes (51.95%), followed by González with 5,326,104 votes (43.18%), based on
what it said were 96.97% of polling results. The results announcements consisted of oral
communications with no infographic support. The CNE did not publish, and still has not
published, any results (or results broken down by polling station), to support their oral
announcements as envisaged in the legal framework for elections.

11. The CNE had put in place arrangements for the production of printed results
protocols, at the polling station level. This was a key transparency safeguard (i.e., a paper
trail), with several security features such as QR and hash codes with unique signatures, as
well as physical signatures of officials and agents. These security features, as a whole,
appear to be very difficult to be fabricated. The legal framework stipulated that each original
printed protocol was to be sealed and safeguarded by military personnel. Copies were to be
distributed to polling officials, party agents, and accredited observers. However, the Panel
received several reports that agents of opposition parties had been prevented from obtaining
such a copy. Moreover, despite assurances that it would do so, the CNE has not published
these results protocols.

12. The Panel reviewed a small sample of the documents that are currently in the public
domain (including those posted online by the opposition) and that are reported to be results

protocols from various polling stations. All of those reviewed exhibit all the security
features of the original result protocols. This suggests that a key transparency safeguard
may be available, as intended, with respect to any officially released results. (The Panel did
not set out to ascertain or review the vote totals).

13. In sum, the results management process of the CNE fell short of the basic
transparency and integrity measures that are essential to holding credible elections. It did
not follow national legal and regulatory provisions, and all stipulated deadlines were missed.
In the experience of the Panel, the announcement of an election outcome without the
publication of its details or the release of tabulated results to candidates has no precedent
in contemporary democratic elections. This had a negative impact on confidence in the
outcome announced by the CNE among a large part of the Venezuelan electorate.

14. On 31 July 2024, President Maduro submitted a complaint to the Electoral Chamber
of the Supreme Court of Justice, reportedly seeking a review of the process and a verification
of the results. On 6 August 2024, the Electoral Chamber confirmed that it had received from
the CNE the results protocols and other requested documentation. It announced that it
would proceed to an expert verification process of the documentation submitted by the
CNE. There is no detailed information available to date on how this appraisal is to be
conducted.

15. While the numbers from domestic sources vary and the Panel did not try to ascertain
their accuracy, it noted reports stating that over 20 people – including one soldier – were
killed and more than 1,000 people were detained between 29 July and 2 August 2024 as a
result of protests following the announcement of results. These reported numbers have
continued to rise. The Panel also heard reports of threats and intimidation against party
agents and polling officials.

16. Venezuelan authorities cooperated and supported the Panel’s deployment. The Panel
was able to interact with a wide range of interlocutors and follow the main stages of the
electoral process. It also had a constructive dialogue and positive exchanges with the CNE
until the closing of polls on 28 July. After that moment, the Panel was regrettably – and
despite a request sent by Note Verbale – not able to meet the CNE Board before the Panel’s
departure.

9 August 2024

traed said:
Only maybe if there is a selection lottery at regular intervals and no single person alone is leader rather a group of people come to agreement on matters at hand ideally while always being pseudoanonymous from each other and the public so they can freely speak their minds while remaining accountable. Otherwise you just wind up with corruption and bribery same as in elected officials with their lobbyists.

LaytonPuzzle27 said:
Ever since May of 2020 America is a Orwellian nightmare and Venezuela is nothing more than a glimpse of America's future be like if Kamala wins the 2024 US Presidential Election a.k.a. Obama's 4th term. If anyone on this site doesn't want United States suffer the fate like Venezuela please don't let Kamala win the US Presidential Election.